Tania on TV

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TANIA ON TV

Following the showing of Real Story on BBC1 on Monday 14th June 2004, Tania and TV Vet Emma Milne went head to head on GMTV the following morning. Here's what happened:

15 June 2004
6.48am
John Stapleton	Asks Emma .... Why do you think this breed should be allowed to become extinct
Emma Milne	Well, basically because over the last 100-150 years ... they used to be a very different breed. They were originally bred for bullbaiting, so they were quite leggy, they were athletic originally... the story goes they had to have a slightly shorter nose so they could actually hang on to an animal and still breathe through their nostrils at the same time, but now that all of that sport has disappeared and the bulldog has been bred more and more and more for the show ring - the characteristics that were originally selected have just become vastly exagerated .....
John Stapleton	And they are now at risk ... there are health problems according to you now?
Emma Milne	Yeah, there's many health problems .... pedigree dogs on the whole have got about 400 inbred deseases now which have happened over the years but the bulldog is really one of the dogs at the top of the list with things like the pekensese because they have these terrible problems with their airways.
John Stapleton	Can't breath properly, can't give birth naturally according to you
Emma Milne	The vast majority, the thing is .... the breed standard although it has been changed slightly recently, says the bulldog should have a massive head and it has this very narrow pelvis so many bitches can't actually fit the puppies through the birth canal	The reference to massive head was removed from the Bulldog Breed Standard in 2003
John Stapleton	Well that's the case for the prosecution, let's hear the case for the defence ... Tania .... what do you say to all that?
Tania Holmes	As a vet she should be perfectly aware that the bulldog puppy is not born with a big head, the head is the last part of the dog to actually grow, the cesarian section is not because bulldog puppies have big heads ... as a vet I would expect much more of her than that.
John Stapleton	What about the more general charge that people have overbred them, that they have difficulty breathing, they can't run, that they are not very fit and that's all because breeders want to get these big prizes at the shows
Tania Holmes	No, not at all, not at all ... um ... I've got 2 here .. I mean ... we are not having any noises being made from dogs breathing. These two can run, they can play, the show ring actually saved the breed from extinction, without the show ring, without the breed standard you'd have people breeding any bulldog to any bulldog, there's be no control over what's being bred, who it's being bred to and the resulting puppies would have far more health problems than Emma thinks they've got at the moment.
Emma Milne	I don't see how they can have many more than they've got at the moment ... The fact is that those dogs are at rest there ... on Real Sotry last night (Monday 14th June 2004, 7.30pm BBC1) we showed a bulldog that was being shown at Crufts and that dog actually collapsed in the ring.	This dog did not collapse in the ring. It was recently out of quaranteen and became over whelmed before going into the ring. The dog was at his second show and was withdrawn by his owner. The ringside interview was misleading and the owner was unaware he was being interviewed for an anti-bulldog item
John Stapleton	Yeah but ... many people have called us and in information I have read say that frankly ... big men don't run, these dogs don't do alot of running either but they are great pets and fundamintally there is nothing wrong with them, that you don't know what you are talking about .... that's what they are saying.
Emma Milne	The thing is, we shouldn't be deliberately breeding a dog which is incapable of surviving, and without veterinary intervention ... a lot of the time ....
John Stapleton	Interupts Emma She'll survive (pointing at Gracie) - Gracie will survive
Emma Milne	How do you know that? She could have aortic stenosis (a heart condition), cleft palates, the have a number of inbred problems	Cleft palates are obvious at birth, Gracie was 9 weeks old.
John Stapleton	Bob ... last word with you
Tania Holmes	I think you'd know if she had a cleft palate (faded out)
Bob Bronger	I've been breeding these dogs for 6 years and have been breeding them alongise Cairne Terriers. Apparently Cairn Terriers are perfectly healthy dogs, these run with Cairns, they have the same life as Cairns and although I expect them to have slightly less year living, but they are getting healthy now .... I am part of the London Bulldog Society, we are really getting our act together, making these dogs fit, healthier, doing the minor things .... we know they've got problems, but so has every dog, even mongrels which this lady (refering to Emma) is saying is the perfect dog. We can vouch for their temperament, we can vouch for their breeding because we've got the history behind it.
John Stapleton	OK, well, I think the row will have to go on, you are going to talk further about it on the programme after 7 o'clock. Thanks very indeed for coming in to talk to us here on the news hour and a special thanks to Gracie who has been very very good and well behaved.
6.54am

8.09am
Fiona Phillips	This is Gracie, sin't she just gorgeous, she is 9 weeks old and she's a bulldog .... TV Vet Emma Milne here thinks that bulldogs like Gracie shouldn't be bred any more. Speaking to her in a moment. That's Bob .... Gracies dad next to her. The vain of most of the texts this morning saying they are a symbol of England, bulldogs are docile, they are loving, are loyal pets ... that we should never stop breeding them because they will always be British but it's all about the poeple and nothing about the welfare of the dog that most of thes people have texted in about. Emma Milne is here and Bob Bronger is next to her and Bob is little Gracies owner and he breeds bulldogs too. And in West Sussex Tania Holmes is at the Bulldog Rescue Center. She is the co-ordinator for the UK. Morning to you Tania .... with you in a moment, but first of all Emma ... lots of texts this morning from people who say they have bulldogs that are healthy, they're fine, they're fit so what's your problem with them?
Emma Milne	I'm not arguing at all that they are not docile and that they are not lovely animals, you know, I'm a lover of all animals, but the bulldog has just been taken to such an extreme now that the characteristics that it was first selected for ... a slightly shorter face, slightly stocky build, they've just been made into cartoon dogs now like we used to see on Tom and Jerry and particular problems with this massively squashed face is that they tend to have 4 or 5 different problems with their respatory system and they can be really struggling for air.
Fiona Phillips	And what about the birth process 'cos I was astonished to hear that bulldogs give birth mainly by cesarian now because it's become impossible for them to give birth naturally.
Emma Milne	Well, they have a much much higher incidence of most .... well ... nearly all other dogs. Part of the problem is that their pelvis is very narrow because the breed standard has turned them into a triangular shape. Really, without surgical and medical intervention the breed would die out on it's own and I just feel very strongly that we shouldn't be deliberately breeding an animal that's unhealthy.	Note she's dropped the reference to big heads. The pear shaped body is a remnant of the bull baiting days when bulldogs required front end strength and is not a recent breed feature
Fiona Phillips	So you think that natural selection should take place now and then and let them, they way they are now, just die out?
Emma Milne	Yeah, we could still have the breed but they should be back breeding for longer legs, longer faces and less skin folds
Fiona Phillips	Well Bob, you breed them, what do you think
Bob Bronger	Well to pick up on the point that they are incapable of having natural births ... we have a 50/50 success rate in having our puppies delivered normally. We deliver a lot of our own puppies. The ones that we've had to have interviened have been through causes that can happen in any other breed and we've even had instances where I've checked out a vet and I said ... I'm not that sort of person ... but if I need her opened up will you do it and they've said yes.	The most common reason for c-section in bulldogs is primiary or secondary intertia
Fiona Phillips	Right .....
Emma Milne	But that's our job though isn't it ....	Bob's point was that vets were quite happy to take the money and oblige if an elective c-section was requested
Fiona Phillips	That is your job and you reckon that alot of your job now is taken up with man made problems and the fact that they've bred these little dogs too far. OK, lets go to the Bulldog Rescue center, Tania Holmes is there. Tania Good morning to you, what's your take on this then, I mean you run a rescue center so obvioulsy there is a problem with bulldogs.
Tania Holmes	No, the majority of bulldogs that come through the rescue system here are not "rescues" as such, they are dogs that just need to be rehomed, usually because of a divorce, the classic new baby excuse .... there's one behind me now, he's 11 years old, he's here because his owner died .... I'd like to ......
Fiona Phillips	But Tania, we've had so many texts this morning from people who said that they formerly worked for the RSPCA and say that there is a huge problem with the rescue of bulldogs because of the problems with them and also greyhounds which you must have come across as well. 30,000 greyhounds for instance which are bred every year in Ireland without regulations on quantity or quality and this seems to be happeneing with alot of breeds now.	The RSPCA rarely see a bulldog!
Tania Holmes	It's not happening with the bulldog at all. There's only 2,000 puppies registered every year, we have a hundred or so bulldogs through the rescue system and what you have to remember is that we cover the whole country, we are England, Scotland and Wales so 100 dogs a year from a 2,000 a year registrations isn't really that bad and the majority of those are divorce victims.
Fiona Phillips	Alright Tania, that's another man made problem, Emma of course, divorce and stuff that humans inflict on animals. Tania, thank you very much we have to leave it there. Bob thank you for bringing your little daughter in, she's gorgeous ....
8.15am